Implementing Universal Healthcare in the United States, Part II

the following thread stemmed from my facebook status line on 7.25.09. my status is the first entry posted below and includes a quote from a woman whom i refer to as X.


Paola Lopez

"I say that people choose to be poor. This is America." --So said the Idiot (X.) who chose to engage in debate with me re Universal Healthcare in the States.


Dane Jessie

Excuse me, but I hate fucking idiots like that.


Paola Lopez

i know. i honestly had to disengage at that point because we were having two unrelated discussions on two separate levels and i began to watch myself de-evolve by virtue of being in near proximity to her.


J. Regina Blackwell

You know, Paola, you gotta wonder who she was trying to convince: you or herself. . . .


Paola Lopez

regina: good point. if you would have seen her argument in its entirety it was all over the place. she kept citing farmers in brazil of being a good example of how things go sour without the element of financial incentive to take care of one's crops. i pointed out to her that obama's current healthcare plan, as i understand it, allows for personal incentive - if you make more money you still get to lord it over your peers by paying for better health coverage. that it was a tiered system which enables those with means to continue to enjoy a better life than everyone else. so i didn't see what she was complaining about. ;-)


Dane Jessie

Statistically in America today only 1 out of 100 will advance in social standing (financial standing). And this is the first generation in our history that will make less than their parents.


Deede Wedee

We all stand for somthing, but we don't stand a chance. I can't even have political views anymore. I feel so helpless....but I shure do enjoy reading other peoples thoughts & ideals. The great debaters! Have a good day. Everyone And keep kickin that knowledge.


Dane Jessie

Deede, Don't give up. Even if it means sharing your views. It helps others grow and helps create the critical mass that leads to change. If you like hearing others it is because you are thinking, interpreting and weighting the ideas. That is what we need.


Paola Lopez

omg, dane, i was citing to someone that exact same statistic the other day - that upward mobility in this country is a myth. most wealth is transferred linearly - meaning, it's passed among those who are already wealthy or to one's offspring (inherited wealth). statistically speaking, the number of people who actually jump from their class and move upward is very, very small. sure, we hear success stories and they are touted around like the american ideal is commonplace, but it isn't. that american dream of working hard and elevating your class status is very, very rare. most of us work very hard and pretty much stay in the same class we were born to. the rags to riches story occurs in the smallest fraction of society. the rest of it is comprised of people who were already born to considerable wealth and resources and are thus in a position to expand. i recently cited the ole "you need $100 to make $500" example. it is a great opportunity only for those who already have $100.


Paola Lopez

dane: that was beautifully expressed, btw, what you said to deede. couldn'a said it better myself. we need this type of discourse, even if we disagree, so that we may see what we're working with and thus, begin to assess how we may next proceed.

and i agree, deede, if you enjoy hearing others spread information, it's because you're a thinking individual who is thirsty for data so that you can further develop your own opinions. that is awesome and we do greatly need people like you.

also, i know why you feel so hopeless. i often feel that way too - especially when i see how many people voted against universal healthcare in the u.s. in facebook's poll (a gargantuan amount, btw). but don't be afraid to voice your thoughts, deede, even if you're a mixed bag with disparate views on things; some issues you feel liberal about, others, conservative - there's likely many people out there who feel as you do, you just haven't found them yet. :)


Dane Jessie

The situation is not as frustrating as the blindness of the masses.


Dane Jessie

I believe the only way we grow (in our opinions and challenge our world view) is by listening to those with different points of view. Sometimes it turns a lock and we can evolve our own thinking.

The Belligerence of the Fittest

the following correspondence between X. and i ensued after i posted a response to T. on a facebook bulletin board re universal health care in the united states. i have heretofore never met or engaged with either T. or X., nor are they on any of my friend lists.


T.

Survival of the fittest. You can't afford health care? Not my problem and not from my tax dollars. I went to college, I have a good job and I have health insurance that I pay for.


Paola Lopez

dear T: not everyone can afford college and obviously not everyone can afford to pay for health insurance. not your problem? then go to your doctor, which millions are not fortunate enough to have, and ask her for the definition of a "sociopath" because you're due for a diagnosis.


X.

Get a clue. Socialism has never worked. Will never work. What made America great was hardworking people that created the own breaks and made what they could out of their lives. In a Socialist society there is no reward for hard work. You must have never heard a joke about city, state, or county workers. You can't tell me one thing the government that is better in the public sector compared to the private sector.


Paola Lopez

ha! for one, you need not worry. your daddy's commie fears are not about to materialize. what is trying to manifest is not real socialism. nothing obama has proposed thus far concerning healthcare (or anything else for that matter) is genuine socialism. presently, what is on the table is something which still allows you to reap the rewards of any opportunity you have to be better off than your neighbors. in other words, if you are in a financially viable position due to luck, hard work, however you wanna spin it - then you will still be able to get better health coverage than those who are not in your position. so that social superiority you value and defend will still be yours, never fear.

i implore you to deeply study socialism and compare it to what is being proposed by obama before deciding socialism is a system only designed to take from each citizen without any reward. that there have been failed attempts at communist governments in the past does not mean that socialist governments cannot work in the present and future. there are several countries today who employ socialist measures to varying degrees with a HUGE amount of success; france and norway are two good examples.


X.

How about Brazil? They run a socialist farming practice. Compare it to the farming practice in the United States. When people are planting and harvesting their OWN crops, they will give more effort due to the fact the will receive a reward. What is the incentive for the farmers in Brazil to replant their crops or take the necessary options to ensure the best crop they can get?

Look at public housing in America. Who do they all look like shitholes? Because people don't take care of them. Why would they?

Now take a homeowner. Most will do what they can to keep their dwellings looking decent. I am telling you ownership was the key in making the United States the best county in the world.


Paola Lopez

brazil: like i said, what is currently being proposed by obama still allows for personal incentive, if you feel this is your right to fully exploit. but what must be understood about incentive is that it requires one to be fortunate enough to be in a position of means and mobility to chase that dangling carrot in front of you so that you may make for yourself more dangling carrots, but not everyone is; they are tethered down by invisible ropes - things like poor education, mental disability or illness prevent everyone from being able to pursue opportunities even if they are able to recognize them, and many times they cannot even do that.

it is as though an olympic sprinter and a wheelchair bound person were both told to race. the prize is a highly incentive $1,000,000. however, whoever loses does not get to possess means by which to sustain a living (food, shelter, etc.), that can only be achieved by the $1,000,000 won. obviously, the person in the wheelchair simply couldn't run this race no matter how badly they wanted to. should they be denied the means to live?

incentive can be a tool to achieve success but it assumes an ability to pursue (fiscally, mentally, physically and via other resources) and not everyone has that. it is the familiar "you need $100 to make $500." that is only a fantastic opportunity if you have $100.

as for public housing, unfortunately. that is not a good example because "homeowners" don't own their own home any more than a renter or person in public housing does. the bank owns it. if the poor felt they were entitled to more, as much as anyone else, which they are, then using the philosophy you're referring to, they too would feel the motivation to take care of a public housing facility which is just as much theirs as your house is yours. plus, keep in mind people in public housing are often not just financially challenged but often struggling with severe disabilities of one sort or another. that again, is an invisible tether against motivation to keep up their place that people who are not ill repetitively fail to remember.

Implementing Universal Healthcare in the United States, Part I

the following thread stemmed from my facebook status line on 7.23.09. my status is the first entry posted below.


Paola Lopez

i cannot believe how many people are not in favor of Universal Healthcare in this country. what is wrong with you?? people are sick and dying in the millions in this rich country of ours and you think it's not the responsibility of each and everyone of us?? PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR GREEDY, SELF-INVOLVED ASSHOLES!! you're being manipulated by folks who stand to gain *immensely* financially.


Paola Lopez

If you are so concerned about what you'll get out of it, then consider this: "It is not a welfare state to keep a good portion of the vital population of workforce healthy."


Sheryl Bradbury

I don't want any "health care" that isn't preventative or alternative health care. It's all total BS!


Dane Jessie

They were until they bought into the ads out there. The Drug companies are spending $1,000,000 a day advertising the message. Doesn't the fact that they have enough $ to throw that way tell anyone anything?


Paola Lopez

sheryl: i agree with you for the need to include preventative and alternative health care in any health system we establish. i am regularly arguing with my doctors about that very thing, in fact. :)

however, right now there are so many people who cannot rely upon any sort of regular measures which address their well-being, whether it be before a problem arises or after it's already manifested - and it stuns me how many people think this is a simple matter of darwinism. who is to say the fittest means the most ruthless? there are several ways for this species to evolve and developing systems which safeguard the needs of the many seems a hell of lot more evolved than continuing of the old tradition of The Cave Man - dog-eat-dog style.


Paola Lopez

dane: yes, people do not put two and two together; just what exactly it means that the pharmaceuticals are willing to sink so much dough into this brainwashing, er, advertising. it means the "facts" they present the populace are likely to be skewed.


Dane Jessie

Because they follow their "leaders" (can you say FOX news?).


Paola Lopez

i'm surprised that "news" outfit is still in business.

did you read some of the posts on the Do You Believe in Universal Healthcare Poll? incredible.

here's what one bloke had to say: "Survival of the fittest. You can't afford health care? Not my problem and not from my tax dollars. I went to college, I have a good job and I have health insurance that I pay for."


Dane Jessie

The funny part is that our system costs the people who have it MORE than any of the universal systems in place. The average American family pays $1000 a year for those who don't have insurance. A nation wide system would drop the costs.


Ian Cahir

Well said, Paola.


Paola Lopez

ian: thanks, man! :-)

dane: now if we could only get info like that out to more people with the proper "authority" behind it so they'd believe it. i mean, we're never going to convince everyone, but if we could just convince enough to get some of these measure in place...and then work like the dickens to try to infuse it with enough checks and balances so that it doesn't quickly become corrupt, giving people fodder for, "i told you so!"


Dane Jessie

I talk about it everyday on my radio show.


Tina Forras Cartwright

yeah. they need to do something.


Paola Lopez

dane: ok, that's it! :-P did you say i'd be able to tune in to your show via podcast? or do you have copies of it you can send me? i seriously would love to hear you talk about this. phew! i'm so glad someone in the media with your perspective is speaking up, dane.


Chairat Anson Roberts

My 2 cents: I have a heart condition... I am covered by Medi-cal and starting in November, by Medi-care. Just like you, I have paid into those plans since I'd started working (15). I had to go through many years of bureaucratic bull-shit to get them to believe that I was truly sick. It's such a difficult line to draw between someone who really needs them, care, vs. someone wanting to take advantage of (A SYSTEM). That is why, universal HC can take all the questions out of the loop, and really take care of PEOPLE. Yes, I'M DYING TO GET WELL!! =)


Paola Lopez

chairat, what you just said brought tears to my eyes. i remember some talks we've had about this and i know a bit of what you go through. you make an excellent point coming from the position of being exactly the type of person who we, as a country, should want to help keep alive and well. i am on medi-cal myself for a hearing condition and what i had to go through to get it was sheer hell. and now good ole arnie has just deducted half of the services medi-cal used to cover - including audiology! i keep hoping universal healthcare will help minimize the greed factor, reduce the level of suspicion and blame so as to simply allow everyone some level of care. people abuse the current healthcare systems because of one predominant factor: people get sick and need to be cared for; think les miserables and that loaf of bread....


Paola Lopez

omg, and i almost overlooked the most important thing you said, chairat: you have paid for your medical insurance (medi-cal and medi-care) by being a tax payer and having had a job since you were 15 yrs old. those taxes taken from your paycheck every pay period mean you are paying for your supposedly "freebie" health insurance. plus, you pay plenty by being sick and having to cope with the difficulties that brings. you pay enough!